OT: Tatsuokajou in Usuda, Nagano 長野県臼田町の龍岡城

[d***@hotmail.com]

Doing some research at the moment on the 大給松平 clan. Has anyone
been to (or at least know something about) the fortress mentioned in
the subject line??? The site is occupied by a school these days, but
I'd like to visit and see how much of the fortress is left. As always
wish to read up before I drive there. (Almost) any language is fine.

[CL]

Post by d***@hotmail.com
Doing some research at the moment on the 大給松平 clan. Has anyone
been to (or at least know something about) the fortress mentioned in
the subject line??? The site is occupied by a school these days, but
I'd like to visit and see how much of the fortress is left. As always
wish to read up before I drive there. (Almost) any language is fine.

Presumably you Googled and got this:

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~qb2t-nkns/tatuoka.htm

http://www.dynax.co.jp/sinsen/shinano/castle/csl_tatsuoka.html

http://homepage2.nifty.com/FBToulist/Route02/R020414.htm

http://www5f.biglobe.ne.jp/~shingen/joukannagano/tatuoka/tatuoka.html

http://joe.ifdef.jp/nagano/013tatsuoka.htm

http://www.geocities.jp/hanami_yagura/cas_g/other_cas/tatuoka/tatuoka_cas.html

http://www.j-history.jp/travel/trv106c/flame106c.html

... only a couple of which seem to be put up by people who know that
something happened there in 1867. The last one, for instance, but I
noticed at least one other.

We live within 20 minutes walking distance from half a dozen
Sengoku-jidai castle sites. There were about three or four generations
of the same daimyo family who were pretty prolific ... and seem to have
given every son from jinan on down his very own hilltop, village, and
surrounding hatake. A good source for me has been:

http://otakesumiyo.hp.infoseek.co.jp/

But the castle you are looking for information on seems to be one of the
ones he hasn't hit, yet.

CL

[d***@hotmail.com]

Post by CL

Post by d***@hotmail.com
Doing some research at the moment on the 大給松平 clan. Has anyone
been to (or at least know something about) the fortress mentioned in
the subject line??? The site is occupied by a school these days, but
I'd like to visit and see how much of the fortress is left. As always
wish to read up before I drive there. (Almost) any language is fine.

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~qb2t-nkns/tatuoka.htm

<snippity snip>

Post by CL
http://www.j-history.jp/travel/trv106c/flame106c.html
... only a couple of which seem to be put up by people who know that
something happened there in 1867. The last one, for instance, but I
noticed at least one other.

Yes I had already browsed all of those, been googling it on and off for
about a month, looks like I'll just have to go. I'm looking for
dimensions, schematic diagrams
(http://www.j-history.jp/travel/trv106c/trv106mp1.html would be useful
if the dimensions were included), cross sections etc, as well as some
more detailed info on its construction, manpower and finances used and
so forth. Any any more snippets I can find about Matsudaira Noritaka's
move from Okazaki to Shinano too.

Post by CL
We live within 20 minutes walking distance from half a dozen
Sengoku-jidai castle sites. There were about three or four generations
of the same daimyo family who were pretty prolific ... and seem to have
given every son from jinan on down his very own hilltop, village, and
http://otakesumiyo.hp.infoseek.co.jp/
But the castle you are looking for information on seems to be one of the
ones he hasn't hit, yet.

Pretty nifty site, thank you.

[CL]

Post by d***@hotmail.com
Yes I had already browsed all of those, been googling it on and off for
about a month, looks like I'll just have to go. I'm looking for
dimensions, schematic diagrams
(http://www.j-history.jp/travel/trv106c/trv106mp1.html would be useful
if the dimensions were included), cross sections etc, as well as some
more detailed info on its construction, manpower and finances used and
so forth. Any any more snippets I can find about Matsudaira Noritaka's
move from Okazaki to Shinano too.

I was a little shocked to see that it was a star fort. I had thought
the one in Hakodate was the only one in Japan. Guess there was a larger
market for outmoded defensive design than I previously knew about.
Makes you wonder whether the British sold the design by the fort or just
sold them one set of plans for the lot.

Post by d***@hotmail.com

Post by CL
http://otakesumiyo.hp.infoseek.co.jp/

Pretty nifty site, thank you.

After seeing the layout of that castle, I'm going to have to check every
one of his entries to see whether there were any other European style
ones and if any of them remain.

CL

[d***@hotmail.com]

Post by CL

Post by d***@hotmail.com
Yes I had already browsed all of those, been googling it on and off for
about a month, looks like I'll just have to go. I'm looking for
dimensions, schematic diagrams
(http://www.j-history.jp/travel/trv106c/trv106mp1.html would be useful
if the dimensions were included), cross sections etc, as well as some
more detailed info on its construction, manpower and finances used and
so forth. Any any more snippets I can find about Matsudaira Noritaka's
move from Okazaki to Shinano too.

I was a little shocked to see that it was a star fort. I had thought
the one in Hakodate was the only one in Japan. Guess there was a larger
market for outmoded defensive design than I previously knew about.
Makes you wonder whether the British sold the design by the fort or just
sold them one set of plans for the lot.

There are actually two in Hakodate, the "touristy" Goryokaku, and a
smaller 4 point fort (四稜郭 / shiryokaku) that was designed to
house a supporting battery - the smaller fort is more interesting if
you want to wander all over it checking out the angles of the firelanes
etc. There was another fortress (Benten-Houdai) on the harbourfront,
which was more of a battery (with the artillery supplied by the
Russians) but this was destroyed to expand the dock facilities. Apart
from the 2 in Hakodate and Tatsuokajou, I'm not aware of any other
western influenced defences.

Also, *as far as I'm aware*, both Goryokaku and Shiryokaku were
designed using French influences by Takeda Ayasaburou (武田斐三郎)
, one of the "Dutch learning" scholars, without any input or advice
from the British. Any there any source materials referring to British
assistance with any of the above forts?

Post by CL

Post by d***@hotmail.com

Post by CL
http://otakesumiyo.hp.infoseek.co.jp/

Pretty nifty site, thank you.

After seeing the layout of that castle, I'm going to have to check every
one of his entries to see whether there were any other European style
ones and if any of them remain.

I'm sure there are no others, but if you do find any could you let me
know please?

[j***@csse.monash.edu.au]

Post by d***@hotmail.com
Also, *as far as I'm aware*, both Goryokaku and Shiryokaku were
designed using French influences by Takeda Ayasaburou (???????????????)
, one of the "Dutch learning" scholars, without any input or advice
from the British. Any there any source materials referring to British
assistance with any of the above forts?

AFAIK that "star" design originated with Vauban, Louis XIV's
designer of fortifications. It was copied all over the place.

[d***@hotmail.com]

Post by j***@csse.monash.edu.au

Post by d***@hotmail.com
Also, *as far as I'm aware*, both Goryokaku and Shiryokaku were
designed using French influences by Takeda Ayasaburou (???????????????)
, one of the "Dutch learning" scholars, without any input or advice
from the British. Any there any source materials referring to British
assistance with any of the above forts?

AFAIK that "star" design originated with Vauban, Louis XIV's
designer of fortifications. It was copied all over the place.

Yes. What I don't know is whether there was any foreign involvement in
the actual construction of Goryokaku or Shiryokaku. I'm fairly sure
that the star layout and symmetry was done entirely by Takeda using
drawings mostly of French fortifications in the low countries obtained
via rangaku, and until today hadn't heard of any foreign advisors -
British, French or from anywhere else. Plus Tatsuokajou was apparently
laid out by Matsudaira Noritaka personally (probably on a shoe string
budget). AFAICT it was done without any cross referencing with Takeda,
so I'm assuming the knowledge of Vauban's designs (and maybe his siege
techniques too?) was fairly well known in Japan.

[CL]

Post by d***@hotmail.com
Also, *as far as I'm aware*, both Goryokaku and Shiryokaku were
designed using French influences by Takeda Ayasaburou (武田斐三郎)
, one of the "Dutch learning" scholars, without any input or advice
from the British. Any there any source materials referring to British
assistance with any of the above forts?

Nah. That was just me combining my inability to remember which country
backed which side during what time in the Restoration years without
Googling (which I am too lazy to do when I am sure it will occur to me
... eventually) with my ignorance of who originally designed what type
of earth defenses. The newest examples of star forts I know were the
ones at the Pennsylvania end of the Ohio River Valley (Forts Pitt and
Duquesne) which our brave American forefathers and foremothers liberated
from our British oppressors (after they traded ownership with the French
half a dozen times), so I proceeded from that fallacy to the others.

Post by d***@hotmail.com
I'm sure there are no others, but if you do find any could you let me
know please?

Will do. I see information on Restoration sites from time-to-time, but
I am more interested in the late Sengoku-jidai and the battles leading
up to Sekigahara as that is when most of my wife's ancestors were
raising serious hell. I seem to be the only member of the family trying
to find out where they came from since her grandmother died.

CL